Even though we are competitors in business (and I say that with affection), Evan Marc Katz and I have been friends for years and I have a great deal of respect for him, his message and his coaching style. He’s appeared as a guest during my group coaching calls, so when he asked me to share the mic with him on his podcast, I was quick to agree.
Little did I know how contentious this friendly chat might turn out to be!
Watch for yourself and discover our unique points of view when it comes to dating a divorced man, then click over to Facebook and join in the discussion.
He seemed to disagree with you before you even opened your mouth! At times he didn’t even let you finish your sentences and didn’t let you talk. No one needs a competitor/ “colleague” like that.
Wow Jonothon. I like a lot of what you have to say but on this one Evan pretty much ate your lunch!
It was a very interesting interview. The exchange of opinions and the way the two of you explained your disagreement on certain issues was really impressive. Coming from two professional coaches. I liked this a lot Jonathan ☺ i will definitely share this to my friends. Good job! And more power to you
Why would I want do listen to you arguing? Evan you have a guest on your show and spend the entire time trying to tell him how right you are and how wrong he is? How is that helpful?
I appreciate Jonathan’s understanding of how long-term serial dating can really be a waste of time and emotional drain and wanting to help us assess early any basic differences in values that would be deal-breakers. I do agree with Evan’s statement that springing a big negative on someone too early will cause a retraction by the other, but there is a way to still attempt to find out info without it seeming like an interrogation. For example, I don’t want to wait until the 3rd date to find out he is a Trump supporter – a complete deal-breaker for me. That’s just a waste of my time and energy.
I totally agree with Jonathan aslays approach . And at 48 i dont have interest nor time to find out moe than three dates in that im mismatched. I think you HAVE to ask if theres a true compatability in shared values.
But……
I wouldn’t want to share my life or heart, body with a man whom is still friends with an ex girlfriend. That’s just not a healthy place to be: triangulated.
This was a really great discussion. I enjoyed and learned from both perspective. Evan held my understanding of how to develope a better relationship
I agree tremendously with Evan, There are no perfect people and all are grownup and still have childhood issues. No one is 100% not affected by their childhood. Evan is mentally/emotionally healthy. Yes…being friends with ex is not good. Evan is awesome in his ideas. Jonathon is not as mentally/emotionally healthy and only those women who are equal to him will accept that way he questions them. Save sex for..after the guy loves the personality….a long time from meeting…not right away. Save regular sex when married…not with new date. Dates can be cheap…doesn’t have cost people money. Sunsets/bike ride/Chinese restaurant. My divorce was easy…no money issues. Men should not be looking for a woman who is like their mom, but want fast sex with them. Evan approach to me is healthier. A desperate person may show it…much fear etc… Jonathon may be looking for a woman to pay all mostly. Two incomes is good so if something happens they still have an income. One income can be saved for special things…vacations/retirement/special things. Men usually remarry fast…within 6 months often after a death etc.. I did not ask for divorce…was sick. No need $100,000 for a marriage to work. Women may want the guy to be strong….have an income that showed hard work/effort…not lazy. My husband was still in college at the time we married. I had no thought to how much money he would contribute.No need talk about money ever except assume both will contribute. Money/sex should not be number one on list to ask about. Those things should come later. I believe Evans way is best. A person may never find a mate if they want a perfect person…no one is perfect.
What a harlious conversation! I was glued to the podcast and very disappointed when the last espsoide ended. I agreed, disagreed and laughed at both points of views throughout the discussion. You guys should have a weekly “Jonathon Aslay & Evan Marc Katz Show”. I am 60 years old, a widow for 15 years and I’ve been dating for 12 years. I am very happy with my life and it has been quite a journey learning about myself (as I got married at 20 years old) and the whole dating experience again at an older age. While I do have a friends and a good male friend who I absolutely adore I am one of those women who have no desire to get married again. Thanks so much Jonathon!
Relationships are more than companionship;/sex. I want an equal relationship…not control issues/guy who manipulates etc. If you think only about money then no one could afford to date ever. Dating doesn’t need to cost anything. Kids can get their own loans for college. Not all kids need to go to college. It is like a 2nd high school and doesn’t mean they will earn lots of money in the future. Economics should not affect dating. As long as both try to help should be ok. Two people can come together and keep money separate…no combine incomes. Focus on money is sad. It is not important. Money is not important…leave it out of the relationship. It is like someone is a “gold digger” to have a relationship only for money/sex. A poor person is of value/worth. It is like Jonathan would not date a person unless they have enough money….bad way to pick a person.
STD can be in saliva…even a kiss. 1/2 of people may have had Mono etc. Most people may not realize they have infections. Zyto scan shows infections. I could not be with Jonathan …could be with Evan. I am afraid of guys and if they want sex I run since that is not important compared to other things. I agree…don’t talk about all the bad things at the start. All people have flaws. See if you can be compatible not just for sex, but all ways. No need to even live with them until marriage.
i think a lot of the disagreement was due to their age difference and difference in their client demographics. . jonathan is in his 50’s and has dated in the middle age demographic and knows what he wants. Evan is still coming from his dating experiences in his 20’s and early 30’s.
I agree. I think Evan’s approach is not for grown- up people, but for sort of teenagers ( he was afraid for a long time to tell his future wife he wants to raise children as Jewish and she was afraid to tell him she was in debt. Very childish I think, for both of them;)
Interesting conversation. At times I had to pause the video and walk around the kitchen because the tone was too intense for me. Evan was trying to convince Jonathan of a more diplomatic approach to dating while exhibiting a decidedly undiplomatic method of proving his point. He was quite fierce in his approach, and I almost laughed at the fact that Evan would place his hand on Jonathan’s shoulder while he was basically yelling at him. Made me wonder a couple of things about Evan, such as “Did his now-wife wait ten months to tell him about her ‘flaw’ because she feared his reaction?” My other thought was that he could very well be the type of guy who is charming for months before you find out there’s a different man hiding beneath a careful façade…not quite so calm and charming, but perhaps a man who interfaces intensely with the world (which some woman would love, and others might be uncomfortable with). I’ve dated someone like this, and it was from that experience that I learned how important it is to ask questions and listen carefully to responses. I agree with Jonathan that questions should be asked, but there is a way it can be done without seeming like an interrogation. For example, if you’re trying to find out what someone’s political affiliation might be, you could say, “So, have you been watching all the political stuff that’s been happening lately?” Or, you could say, “Are you interested in politics?” Then, listen to their answer. A simple question, phrased in a non-threatening manner can go a long way to start a valuable conversation. Almost any question can be prefaced with, “I’m curious…How do you feel about…?” I’m widowed and in the “mid life years,” so I’m in agreement with Jonathan that there is not bushels of time to figure everything out while dating unfolds for months in a completely unobtrusive way. We have to think about what type of relationship we desire, and do some screening for that. Not in the form of an interrogation, but through curious questions that spark dialogue. It’s absolutely true that people will reveal truth to you in the very early stages of dating because they have no emotional strings attached to you yet. Once they decide they want you, an unethical person is much more likely to lie or hide things. So, early questions that draw out the other person in conversation is the way to go. If done in a friendly, non-threatening manner, it’s amazing what people will reveal about themselves. The trick is to LISTEN to the answers and not make excuses for them, which is what I used to do, back when I suffered from terminal people pleasing (when I had no clue how to date). I completely disagree with Evan’s approach about telling someone about a sexual problem, such as having herpes, until you are in the bedroom. That puts any woman at a complete disadvantage and creates an enormously awkward situation. How about mentioning it before the woman is melting in your arms, vulnerably naked? Again, there are ways to communicate such things that would allow a woman to actually respect a man, instead of feeling duped or taken advantage of. I have to agree that I would not want to learn that a potential date is best friends with his ex-girlfriend when we haven’t even had our first date. Many good women would be wary of that, and it would be much better for that to be brought up casually after a couple of dates. Because it’s not “the norm” for people to continue best friendships after breaking up, it might be considered a potential red flag, and some good women would not want to invest time in trying to figure out the dynamic. However, if you are dating someone and you find it’s working out great after a few weeks or so, a good woman might be willing to understand if she has had time to figure out that the guy is a good and trustworthy man. After all, if they can maintain best friendships with their exes on “How I Met Your Mother,” it certainly can happen in real life, right? LOL. In conclusion, I commend both Jonathan and Evan for the work they do to help people become better at dating and relationships. It can’t be easy to figure out an instruction manual for something as unpredictable as human behavior.
A lot of hard to listen to bickering…. None of this seems to have anything to do with finding healthy adult esteeming relationships
Let me start by saying thank you for watching the video and thank you for those who commented (either on blog itself or on Facebook, much appreciated).
Many of you mentioned that it’s a hard video to watch. It might have appeared to be contentious (between Evan and me), so I want to let you all know that while it may have looked a bit uncomfortable for me, Evan’s push back on my presentation was actually a good thing. In fact, it’s inspired me to create a whole new program to help women better screen men—without scaring them away.
But here’s some clarity about the points I was trying to make.
It’s not about interrogating, it’s about being more discerning.
It’s not about leading with one’s flaws, but being transparent without fear of rejection.
It’s not about splitting the bill; it’s about how to create a true partnership.
Here’s one thing I strongly believe about dating: it’s meant to be a fun adventure. However, there also has to be an element of screening involved as well. Otherwise we run the risk of falling hard for someone who turns out to be completely incompatible.
So here’s what I’m all about… there’s a better way to date and build relationships, and that is my passion.
Take for example my client Sharon, who put so much pressure on herself to “meet the ONE,” that she began to resent dating—and it showed. Together she and I created a new dating mantra to help her see the dating in a whole new light:
Dating is an adventure. I stay open because there is a REASON why I am meeting each person. Whether it’s to practice my dating skills, have an interesting conversation, get some masculine energy, learn something new about myself, or to see if we share the same values or are on the same page when it comes to long term commitment. If it is something MORE, how exciting is that!
After I go out with a man, the first questions to ask myself after the date are:
CAN I BE FRIENDS WITH HIM?
DO I LIKE TALKING TO HIM?
DO I LIKE HIM?
DO I SENSE WE SHARE THE SAME VALUES?
AM I ATTRACTED TO HIM physically AND beyond the physical?
As Sharon has come to realize, the early stages of dating are about having fun, growing as a person, and hopefully falling in love with someone who WANTS a long-term commitment.
My approach is proven to work for those women who find they continually attract emotionally unavailable or simply incompatible men into their lives.
Truthfully, I’m grateful to Evan for allowing me to speak to his community. I have the greatest respect for him and his teachings and we both share the same mission… to help women attract love and understand men better. I hope that message didn’t get lost in our good-natured banter.
I’d love to hear your thoughts, so please feel free to comment on the blog, on Facebook or hit reply to this email.
And if you’d like more info about my approach to dating divorced men, click here: https://www.jonathonaslay.com/divorced/
Thank you again.
With love,
-Jonathon
At this point I’m not interested in either “coach” I think a person needs to have a respectful affirming relationship with themselves. Use loving boundaries and you will be able to figure out if the other person is right for you.
Wow I can’t believe people here said that it is not normal or good to be friends with an ex. I’m good friends with my ex husband – our connection is on a spiritual level, but I’ve often been friends with exes. Some breakups are bitter but the ones that aren’t – enjoy the friendship.
Thank you for being vulnerable and posting the video. I have been following you for a long time and I completely understood what you were saying. It made total sense to me because I know your message so well. As someone who has been through a divorce, I have learned that I didn’t see red flags right from the very beginning. Chemistry and attraction are great, but they don’t make a successful relationship. Being discerning in the very beginning will help you not fall head over heels for the wrong guy (perhaps again!!!) If there are dealbreakers that are apparent, it is not wise to think the person will change and I believe that someone can avoid much heartbreak knowing the dealbreakers upfront. (And like you said, you don’t just dump your baggage on the first date. I think Evan totally missed what you were saying…..)
I understand you two are friends, but he was very defensive. I would think he knows what you stand for and I don’t think he should have invited you on his show if he was going to argue with you like that. It’s almost like he was threatened by what you were saying. The odd thing is that it seems like you were saying the same thing and he couldn’t see it. You handled this very well, though, and again, i really applaud you for putting yourself out there.
Some truth men over 45 are different – for the reason Jonathan has stated. You can be loving in how you use boundaries in finding your hearts desire and not wasting heart ache and time and that it need not be an interrogation time is not the enemy.
I’m very blessed because have a few hight quality men in my life right now. All of them I’ve met on line.
There is one who could qualify as red flags – he didn’t return calls when he said and seemingly not making plans after guess what coming on strong.
We had a talk – I was loving with my boundaries which included why he didn’t call when he says’. Guess what his marriage was dysfunctional so is the divorce – he has work and custody issues on his mind. I can ease that burden or exacerbate it. If I care for him as a separate person out side of m self, I choose to ease his burdens not add to them. Regardless, if things turn into marriage, or the way I want them to be. There are now more green lights then red… but we still have some things communicate about in a mature way. It maybe that it’s not going to work – That is okay too.
I’ve been in mindful therapy for 10 mo now. This is something I did for myself and others. It’s taken a lot of work to become self aware.
Lots of luck to everyone in find love and finding it in a healthy relationship –
There I believe you can achieve more than on your own
Hello Liza,
It is good to hear that your relationship worked out. I’m struggling with a similar situation. He signed the divorced papers but is not ready for a serious relationship. He doesnt feel like asking me out in public places. He invited me home in the evening nothing physical happened He pushed for another meeting at night but I canceled it but I do not want sex before relationship.
How did you go about it? Did you start as friends? How far did you go romanticly? Did you go out or first dates were at his place?
Liza, can you please advice me? Shall I go to his place in the evening and only accept the kiss and hug or only stay friends? Which approach is best in your opinion?
Warm regards
Dafne
Definitely entertaining to watch! Good to see a heated discussion between the two of you…
I really enjoyed watching this video, and the debate was very useful and highlighted two different “philosophies”- Evan’s being a philosophy of casting a wide net and letting the dating process itself bring you to the right match in time rather than trying to weed out too much in first or second date (which may drive away potential matches because dating that person is not fun!).
And Jonathan’s approach emphasized knowing what your values and needs are, and authentically and effectively communicating them early to the people you connect with to increase the odds of reducing bad dates.
My dating philosophy is to keep an open mind and try both approaches! I’m very communicative and my natural approach is closer to Jonathan’s approach. But after being single for 3 years after divorce and meeting 150 women in that time I’ve decided to try Evan’s approach for a bit, simply because I found dating was feeling more like work. Now I want to be more “in the moment”, find a woman I have chesmitry with who is attracted to me and has time to spend with me. Then, and only then, will I start to do the kind of assessment Jonathan mentions.
I think the key is to try something different if you aren’t having the success you hoped for. These two dating coaches offer great insights, and there are pros and cons with both approaches. I recommend singles try both approaches at different times and see how it works out for them.
Dear Canadian Divorced Dad, Thank you of this well thought out and kind comment. So I’m curious to ask though, now that you’ve had 150 dates, don’t you feel you have a better sense of who is compatible with you and who is not? As I’m sure you learned so far, chemistry alone doesn’t create relationship success and there has to be some weeding out otherwise we men (especially) can get caught up if the drive for sex is leading the ship. For the record, I agree that there needs to be a balance of both approaches which is why I like what eHarmony appraochy: when you take compatibly and ignite it with chemistry… that’s a home run. Thanks again for your share and PLEASE keep me posted on your experiences. All my best. Jonathon
Thanks for the reply Jonathan. And yes I certainly do have a much better sense of what I’m looking for now than when I first became single again. I had zero dating intelligence really as I married my first partner from high school. So I have had to learn what I need in a relationship in mid-life, and how to read a woman’s interest, personality, and how to attract a person to me, etc. I’ve learned a great deal, but I’m still single ha ha!. But I consider avoiding bad relationships to be one key aspect of dating success (men typically rush into something serious after divorce which typically isn’t helpful as they need to be whole again first), The second key aspect of dating success I think is not passing on potential good matches (which one risks when trying to vet people too early in the dating process).
I think another useful lens for understanding the disagreement you and Evan have is the two approaches can reflect different attachment styles. If someone has a “preoccupied attachment” style they will desire to find out ASAP if someone is the right match for them as they have a tendency to narrow in on one person early in dating and want as much info as they can get. I certainly was this way in the first two years after divorce. But I feel I’ve now restored my “secure attachment”, so I know I won’t end up in a relationship that doesn’t meet my needs. I trust my judgement and instincts again, so I don’t need too much info from the start. I can just enjoy dating someone and give things time to reveal whether it has the potential for something more serious or not.
But that’s me saying that from the man’s perspective. I think things are slightly different on the woman’s side of things. They face way more potential suitors than even the most eligible bachelor. So they need to be selective for, as you say, they don’t want to waste their time dating bad matches. But, I can hear Evan replying, a woman also needs to ATTRACT a man to her and many good guys will pass on dates that feel like interviews. Good guys know they are good guys, they don’t need to prove on the first date they are worth investing in as a LTR. Men start off looking for casual fun, and discover the love of their life when they have fun with a compatible match.
It’s this predicament of (1) being able to weed out bad matches in dating while also (2) attracting good potential partners to you that is, in my opinion, the key. Forcing on (1) too intensely comes at the cost of (2).
Cheers
Thank you for sharing and I agree with much of what you said… as far as Evan’s comment, I would agree an interrogation is unpleasant and unattractive. What I teach my clients is how to get to know someone coming from the heart. If it comes from the heart and it’s sincere… a woman can’t turn off the right guy, the right guy appreciates depth and the wrong guys runs from it… even if it’s the 1st or 2nd date. Thank you for bring the male perspective to this conversation… much needed.
Hello,
Great insights! Thank you for sharing your perspective.
Can you help me please with my situation?
The guy I’ve met says that he signed the divorced papers recently but is not ready for a serious relationship. He doesnt feel like asking me out in public places. He invited me home in the evening nothing physical happened. He pushed for another meeting at night but I canceled it as I do not want sex before relationship.
What should I do? How far is too far romanticly now? Shall I go to his place in the evening and only accept the kiss and hug (he will push for more) or only stay friends? What to say? Which approach is best in your opinion?
Warm regards
Dafne
It sounds like you’d benefit from a coaching session. Click here: https://www.jonathonaslay.com/coaching